<Bob_Wilkin> Let's get the discussion going

<Bob_Wilkin> Who'd like to ask Jody as Q

<Bob_Wilkin> a q

<Andrew> okay

<Bob_Wilkin> Ask

<Bob_Wilkin> Jody why did the Puritans call

<Bob_Wilkin> themselves experimentalists

<Jody_Dillow> My understanding is that it had two meanings

<Jody_Dillow> First, they wanted to emphasize that Christianity should be EXPERIENCED

<Jody_Dillow> But, it developed into a secondary idea

<Jody_Dillow> A man's experienced must be tested, an experiment  must be performed.

<Jody_Dillow> They called it the practical syllogism

<Bob_Wilkin> so if his works aren't perfect...

<Jody_Dillow> Only in this way could the certainly of his salvation be ascertained.

<Jody_Dillow> If the works were not perfect, he was left with some doubt

<Bob_Wilkin> uncertainty

<Jody_Dillow> The only final test of the reality of faith was to persevere in it to the final hour

<Bob_Wilkin> That is a popular view today, too

<Jody_Dillow> Unfortunately, the only way you can know if you would persevere, was to persevere.

<Bob_Wilkin> Andy, did you have a question?

<Andrew> If the will is not involved in faith, why is it something men are responsible for?

<Jody_Dillow> Good question!

<Jody_Dillow> I think the answer is that we are responsible to direct our attention to the object of faith

<Bob_Wilkin> Strive to enter by the narrow way

<Jody_Dillow> Yet faith itself is not an exertion of the will - rather it is the consequence of looking at the object.

<Bob_Wilkin> super answer

<Doug> question.

<Jody_Dillow> Does that make sense, Andy?

<Andrew> yes

<Bob_Wilkin> Doug?

<Doug> to "direct my attention" is not an act of the will?

<Jody_Dillow> Yes, but that is not faith.

<Doug> what is faith?

<Jody_Dillow> Faith is the persuasion which comes as a result of reflection on the object resulting in reliance upon that object

<Doug> So I take God at His word -- I trust His authority to give life to those that believe?

<Andrew> Why is it do you suppose that faith is a requirement for salvation?

<Jody_Dillow> Right - the key concept seems to be persuasion, reliance, and conviction  - all these things are things which "happen" to us. We do not create them

<Jody_Dillow> I look at a chair, and am persuaded it can hold me up

<Doug> What then are we asking people to do?

<Jody_Dillow> I look at a doctor and am persuade he can help my illness. I don't create faith

<Jody_Dillow> We are asking people to look at the object - the person of Christ and the beauty of the gospel  promise.

<Jody_Dillow> The result of such a biblical look is faith created by the HS in the heart

<Doug> To use a direct example, show me with John 1:12

*** Hal_Haller (Hal_Haller@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SchoolWide

<Bob_Wilkin> Hi Hal

<Hal_Haller> Hello

<Jody_Dillow> Believing is the result of looking at Christ. This is, I believe, true of all acts of faith. Acts 16  -believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ - the object is the important thing and faith is the by product

<Jody_Dillow> Receiving him is another term for believing on Him

<Andrew> Bob, do you agree with Jody (p.489) that "Mere intellectual acceptance of Christ with no acknowledgement of one's sinfulness before God is not saving faith?"

<Bob_Wilkin> Well, I'm not sure what Jody means by that.

<Bob_Wilkin> Could you explain, Jody?

<Jody_Dillow> My thought is that we are coming to Christ for forgiveness and if we do not believe we need it, then we are not looking biblically at the object.

<Bob_Wilkin> So the emphasis there is on

<Jody_Dillow> I am not suggesting a commitment to turn, repent, or submit.

<Bob_Wilkin> the recognition

<Bob_Wilkin> Right

<Jody_Dillow> Yes, the recognition

<Bob_Wilkin> not on "mere intellectual assent."

<Bob_Wilkin> Zane discusses this question in Absolutely Free

<Bob_Wilkin> I think he makes a good case

<Bob_Wilkin> that faith is assent, rightly understood

<Bob_Wilkin> the question is, as Jody has said

<Doug> question.

<Andrew> Are we coming to Christ for forgiveness or for eternal life?

<Jody_Dillow> Yes, but assent must include notions of reliance and persuasion.

<Jody_Dillow> I don't know that they can be separated.  However the promise is salvation from the consequences of sin.

<Jody_Dillow> Probably it varies in the life of different people.

<Jody_Dillow> When I came to Christ, I think eternal life was probably more in the forefront but there was a consciousness that I needed forgiveness.

<Andrew> Is faith knowledge + assent + trust or just knowledge + assent?

<Jody_Dillow> Faith is a persuasion of things hoped for a conviction of things not seen

<Jody_Dillow> The word itself means trust.

<Jody_Dillow> Conviction, persuasion, and trust imply knowledge of the object.

<Jody_Dillow> Thus faith requires assent

<Jody_Dillow> knowledge

<Jody_Dillow> persuasion

<Jody_Dillow> trust

<Jody_Dillow> conviction, etc

<Bob_Wilkin> Steve, a question from California ????

<Steve_Lewis> When did the theology of Justification become combined with Sanctification in the history of the church.

<Jody_Dillow> Very early but it was developed by the Catholics.  As you know, justification was for them, muddied them sanctification.

<Jody_Dillow> rather was mingled with justification

<Bob_Wilkin> Sad

<Steve_Lewis> as inseparable

<Jody_Dillow> If my theology is as bad as my typing, I should not be on line with you guys

<Bob_Wilkin> Hah

<Doug> I have described it this way.  "Is John 1:12 a true statement, without qualification?"  If one says it is, one is believing.  Is this what you would say?

<Bob_Wilkin> Jody, did you see Doug's question?

<Jody_Dillow> Not yet, try again

<Doug> I have described it this way.  "Is John 1:12 a true statement, without qualification?"  If one says it is, one is believing.  Is this what you would say?

<Jody_Dillow> The point seems to be that the gospel of opened up for everyone, not just Jews - a definition of believe is not complete in the verse

<Steve_Lewis> Jody, have you responded to Crenshaw's book in print anywhere as he criticized your book Reign of the Servant Kings?

<Doug> That's my question.  Does "believe" need to be better defined? and if so, why doesn't John define it?

<Jody_Dillow> One must invest the notion of believing in his name with more than mere assent, in my opinion.

<Jody_Dillow> I think the biblical notion includes trust, persuasion , etc.

<Doug> Where does John say so?

<Jody_Dillow> Definition of terms are ascertained by how they are used.  If I use a word I don't pause to define it  but if you studied my usage you would understand my meaning.

<Bob_Wilkin> Did you see STeve's question

<Mike> Steve_Lewis asked, "Jody, have you responded to Crenshaw's book in print anywhere as he criticized your book Reign of the Servant Kings?"

<Jody_Dillow> Isn't this like asking, where does a man say a tree trunk is hard when he only uses the word trunk

<Jody_Dillow> Certain things are part of the semantic value of the word, trust is one of them

<Jody_Dillow> No I have not responded to his book.

<Doug> agreed.  Thus, if I trust that those that believe are children, then I are one.

<Bob_Wilkin> children of God, you mean

<Steve_Lewis> Can a person decide to believe something that he is not fully persuaded of?   A person should not have to sit in a chair to prove you believe it will hold you.  Or what person would sit in a chair he is not sure of?

<Doug> right

<Jody_Dillow> It would seem to be psychologically impossible to act rationally on something you did not believe to be true.

<Bob_Wilkin> Let's go in a different direction for a while.

<Bob_Wilkin> Let's ask Jody about ministry

<Bob_Wilkin> Pastoring, teaching, missions, etc

<Bob_Wilkin> Any questions?

<Doug> What's your method of evangelism as a pastor?

<Jody_Dillow> I am a product of CCC (Campus Crusade for Christ) and have always used the 4-laws

<Jody_Dillow> However, I feel in our post-modern culture, cold turkey evangelism is not as effective as relationship evangelism

<Doug> apparently, I'm not.  What are the four laws?

<Jody_Dillow> We win them by loving them

<Jody_Dillow> Sorry - it is a simple outline of the gospel message used effectively in many languages.

<Jody_Dillow> In China, they send out teams of youth in the summer

<Jody_Dillow> The youth are assigned to a village, and talk to everyone in the village

<Jody_Dillow> As soon as 50 come to Christ, they send some mature leaders in

<Jody_Dillow> to train new leaders and set up a church from the new converts.

<Bob_Wilkin> Tell us about educating pastors overseas in third world countries

<Jody_Dillow> I know one network which grew from 1 man to over 1 million in 15 years.

<Jody_Dillow> All new believers

<Bob_Wilkin> How do they educate the new pastors???

<Jody_Dillow> This is a critical problem

<Jody_Dillow> They are diligent in their training but need much help.

<Jody_Dillow> In some cases, teen age girls are pastors

<Jody_Dillow> simply because they own or can read a bible

<Jody_Dillow> A common method of training is to go underground for a month

<Jody_Dillow> They then bring in teachers from Hong Kong or Taiwan

<Jody_Dillow> and they begin at 5:00 AM , sitting on rocks, and take diligent notes until 10:00 PM

<Jody_Dillow> They also have traveling itinerant Bible women and men who go from village to village on a bike with only a Bible and a book or two.

<Bob_Wilkin> We are very fortunate here

<Doug> we are here are sooo rich!!

<Bob_Wilkin> Education is much more accessible

<Andrew> How bad is the government persecution?

<Jody_Dillow> It varies from province to province.  \

<Steve_Lewis> Bob, I've got to go.  My Hermeneutics class thanks all of you, especially Jody for his availability to us this evening.

<Jody_Dillow> IN some places there is none at all.

<Jody_Dillow> In some it is very severe.

<Bob_Wilkin> bye Steve and hermeneutics

<Jody_Dillow> We have personal friends who have spent time in jail

<Andrew> Have you been persecuted personally?

<Jody_Dillow> Some.

<Jody_Dillow> When we worked in Eastern Europe and Russia in the eighties

<Jody_Dillow> I was interrogated by the KGB, followed by the Romanian securitate

<Jody_Dillow> and once Linda and had to rapidly depart the country one evening about midnight

<Jody_Dillow> because the secret police were searching for us.

<Jody_Dillow> We were very fortunate, we never had a really serious issue.

<Andrew> Consider it all joy (James 1:2).

<Jody_Dillow> Amen and we have always wondered at His protection.

<Bob_Wilkin> Jody, what do you think about the study of NT Greek?

<Bob_Wilkin> Do you think it is important

<Bob_Wilkin>  for the pastor?

<Jody_Dillow> Yes, I use my Greek Testament daily.  It is an invaluable aid for understanding. I use Logos all the time.

<Jody_Dillow> It really helps.

<Mike> Have the advances in communication (eg. Internet) helped in avoiding persecution or have the governments been effective in controlling that aspect as well?

<Jody_Dillow> Again, Mike, it varies from country to country.  We are heavily involved in Vietnam right now and are moving into the Arab world.

<Jody_Dillow> In Vietnam, the Internet is watched carefully but in China , it really is becoming less of a problem

<Jody_Dillow> Due, in part to the masses of people. However, it there is still danger in some provinces.

<Doug> is the Internet in wide use in these countries?

<Jody_Dillow> Not yet.  We are currently preparing an Internet Seminary for use in these countries.

<Jody_Dillow> The number of computer users is increasing at dramatic rates.

<Jody_Dillow> Computer alley in Ho Chi Mihn City or Beijing goes on for miles

<Jody_Dillow> Even in Burma ( Myanmar ) computer alley is fairly large.

<Jody_Dillow> The Internet is all over Nepal as well where we have launched training recently

<Jody_Dillow> The problem is largely the per minute on line charges.

<Doug> pastoring question...

<Doug> How would you determine if a person is saved?  That is what would you look for or ask to determine one's faith?

<Jody_Dillow> Well ... the only thing we can look at is externals and what he asserts.

<Bob_Wilkin> TWO MINUTE WARNING!!!!

<Bob_Wilkin> HAH

<Jody_Dillow> It does seem that the NT does not discuss this question.

<Jody_Dillow> Rather the assumption is that a man who claims to be saved is.

<Jody_Dillow> The truth of the matter is for God to decide

<Doug> good.  then where do you go with the doubter, or the struggling?

<Jody_Dillow> Doug, what  has always seemed to help is the end of Romans 89

<Jody_Dillow> Romans 8

<Jody_Dillow> I walk them through those wonderful promises and direct their attention outward to those promises and to Christ and always from their inner life.

<Andrew> What do perceive to be the biggest problem in the Church today?

<Doug> so the answer to "how do I know if I believe" is Rom. 8.?

<Jody_Dillow> Hi Andy.  It think we have lost a heart for worship

<Jody_Dillow> We go to church as spectators

<Jody_Dillow> I love the book Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Cymballa. Also Fresh Faith.

<Jody_Dillow> Pure cream!

<Bob_Wilkin> WE'RE IN SUDDEN DEATH OVERTIME

<Bob_Wilkin> THANKS SO MUCH, JODY

<Bob_Wilkin> THIS HAS BEEN GREAT

<Jody_Dillow> Thanks, men. I really enjoyed this and have learned a bunch

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